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I think I'll see if we can have Cat and Rick do a set up course for us out in the Pac West. That would be great!!! Maybe I'd learn some of these secretes that aren't being shared on the forums

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

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Hesh: What I any saying is that the nut slots at fret height is ideal. If that were not so ................what about when one frets at the first fret...............do you get buzzing ...........no if the frets are right, relief is right, and action is OK. I think you said the clearance had to increase as the string diameter increased. If the nut slots are at fret height that does not happen. What else can I say.
Tom

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Sometimes I really think that going with a zero fret would be the way to go, but I don't like the look of it


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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

With a zero fret the nut has no bearing on playability beyond being a spacing guide for the strings. Also with the zero fret you can make the claim that the zero fret makes all strings the exact same height.

I'm saying that this is not true because the more massive strings ark higher over the zero fret and what results is that they have greater distance from the next and subsequent frets too height wise.

If we take the zero fret out of the picture and have a conventional nut if I cut the high e and low e to .0005" over the first fret when fretting and holding between the second and third fret the low e would most surely buzz to beat the band and be too low. Why? Because it is more massive and has more inertial when vibrating so it needs more clearance, needs to be higher over the first fret than less massive strings.

We might be saying the same things and in violent agreement... I can't tell and am not understanding your posts very well admittedly.

Let me know what you think I am not getting please?

They are ugly IMO too. But OTOH perfectly suited for f*ctory instruments because no skilled labor is required to set-up the nut and the risk associated with over cutting nut slots is eliminated. Most of the zero frets that I've worked with in recent years have been on cheap imports but there are builders who use them too.

Another way to look at it is back to Mike's line that he drew with the half pencil. Keep that line on the nut face and properly cut the nut slots. If fret height was the end all to be all of a decent setup with the same fret height for all strings the individual nut slots would not be in the same proximity to Mike's line for every string again because of the ark and differences in mass AND stiffness I will add too. It's possible that some slots would be cut below the line but not too low in reality.

Because the more massive strings lash more they need more clearance.

We can take the high e very low because it has the least mass and inertia. It gets more complicated when I throw in the idea that a less massive string may lash out further because it has less inertia to "overcome" and can move more freely and hence perhaps further.

Hesh: All I can ask is what happens when you fret at the first fret? The high e and the low e are at the same height. Why should the nut be any different. The real influence is the action at the 12th fret. Because it is lower on the high e the clearance over the second fret will be less then the clearance at the bass string. This allows for the greater swing of the bass strings. Non the less the ideal height for the nut slots is fret height.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

This last one came out quite good. Very happy with it. I'm no guitar tech. But I'm getting closer. I feel like I made a LOT of progress on setup with this one. Thank you all for your help.

Mike the guitar look really nice. I would be very happy with it.

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On steel strings guitars I cut the trebles below a zero fret location, I do not consider it optimal. They do not need so much clearance. For me first fret bars are the hardest and anything I can do to help I will do.

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I give the bass E a little more clearance because a lot of players will hit that open E a lot harder than they will the fretted note and also because of the prevalence of using drop D tuning.

I use the stew-mac ruler but pencil the lines on the forward face of the nut. That way the lines are always there to see as the slots are cut deeper. No need to check repeatedly.

When fretting between 2 and 3 to check the height, pay attention to how hard you press down. If you watch as you increase or decrease pressure, you can see the clearance change a lot over fret 1. Sometimes I fret straight on top of 2 w/ my fingernail to make sure I'm not distorting the reading. If your heavy handed fretting, you may think you have more clearance than you do.

A carpenters pencil makes a great "half pencil". I don't sand it in half but put a long facet on the thin side that will span the frets. It's less messy, taller, and easier to hang onto.

I pencil the nut pocket on the end of the blank as Hesh does and freehand with my hands supported by the disc sander table. If the nut is held at 45 degrees in my hands I can watch the sanding approach two lines at once. Just barely taking away the lead means a couple of swipes on the ends w/ fine paper and buff.

I find the time sink making a nut is in fixing a crappy slot. I give a quote for a new nut but until I get the old one out, it' a bit of a dice roll.
It's always sweet to pull a nut and find a nice clean, glue free slot.
Glue on the fingerboard end only. Please!
Just my 2 cents.

It's been awhile since I did much work on electrics. As I recall, the rational was that new 9 volt batteries varied widely in their actual voltage. I think Guitar Player magazine bought an array of brands and measured the voltage. I remember the alkaline batteries being a volt or two lower than the cheapo Zn-C. That was the dogma. Some effects companies sold "real Zn-C" batteries for an inflated price. It's not a stretch to think that voltage would have an effect. A wall-wart with the right windings would seem like the obvious solution. (Oh, but then you'd need to measure the outlet voltage at every gig, and figure in the voltage drop from the outlet to your pedal.)

Now I just work on classicals. I wish I could say that there's less mumbo-jumbo.

David has all of this right. Re the half pencil: this is a big improvement. An ordinary pencil, cut in half, is too flexible for the job. Sand a long scarf on the edge of a carpenter's pencil, and check the results on a straight-edge .

Thanks David for the tip on marking string locations on the nut face and then the lines remain for the duration of the slot cutting.....Great tip!

I'm going to defend my lonely half pencil..... It's not too flexible if one does not press down on it when registering on the fret crowns and simply slide it to make the line on the nut. Also I like very fine pencil lines because a pencil line can be easily .020 thick and the precision can be lost. As such the lead/graphite in what ever I use has to be pretty fine and capable of being sharpened additionally to a very fine line. Normally I do with with mechanical pencils with very fine lead in them and I sharpen the thing and mark say the nut end and then sharpen again and mark the other nut end. With a typical pencil I can get a pretty fine point. Not saying that David can't do that with a carpenter's pencil but I know that I can do it with a #2 pence and a mechanical pencil. But what ever works.

Some good time here!

This is a good post and tip and it also indicates that although lots of folks like zero frets it is very possible if not desirable to have string action lower than a zero fret can provide as John indicates here.

Hey Hesh,

Any guidance for us builders who make nylon string guitars?

Also, I'm surprised that no one took you up on your toot offer. I for one would very much like to see it!

Thanks,

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Hey Max!

OK when I get some time I'll throw the toot back up.

Nylon string instruments are typically cut higher than steel string and since nylon string action is also typically higher the set-ups are never pushing up against the limitations of the fret plane to the degree that steel string instruments do.

I've never measured how low I cut nylon string slots and just do it by look and feel since we do it frequently. If there is a guide or spec maybe Eric Reid would weigh-in here and provide some numbers.

Hope you are doing well my friend!

Thanks, Hesh,

I'm finishing up a guitar I'm making for a friend. I've been wanting to bone up on my set up skills, but most all of the available info' relates to steel string instruments.

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan